SONIC YOUTH – The Catalogue. October 1988

THURSTON MOORE (GUITARS, VOCALS) AND KIM GORDON (BASS, VOCALS) CONVERSE WITH DEBORAH COHEN (TAPE-RECORDER)

K This is an election year, I think. And the first song, "Teenage Riot", Thurston really wanted to call...

T "Rock'n'roll President".

K Yes. So there you go.

T The perfect candidate is in our day­dreams.

K It's like, the record is ...

T It's like, idealism.

K If Jesse Jackson had won, y'know...

T Yeah, we were gonna call the album "A Vote For Jesse".'

D So why didn't you call the album any of these titles? ... 'cause Paul Smith told you not to?

T The Catalogue said "No three page phase for you, if you call it after Reverend Jack­son."

D But seriously, would there have been problems if you had called the album something like that, in getting it into shops?

T "A Vote For Jesse"?

K No...

T There might've been problems aestheti­cally with. . .

K ... the candle image... Like elect him, and he's dead, y'know. He would have been probably killed.

T Also... there's less to read into it if you call it something like that.

K Yeah. Maybe, like, if we'd called it "A Vote for Jesse's Son".

T Well, there you go. Exploiting the future.

D Are there other tracks on the album with  political overtones?

K Well, "The Sprawl", which is the second song. .. no, the third song. .. on Side One... well every song has a message, erm, of political... It's about, um, America the suburb.

D From coast to coast.

K Yeah, right. Sort of...

D So did you therefore have the candle image first, before you actually thought of the title?

T We didn't have any title or image until we were pretty much 3/4 of the way through recording. We discussed certain ideas. The candle image came from, er, there're two paintings by Gerhard Richter, a German painter, who's known more, I think, for his abstract expression­ism.

K Well, he does both.

T Yeah. He did a series of photorealist paintings, of these candles. I believe there's 7 or 8 candle paintings he's done. These are 2 of them. He's done other series of paintings of, uh, certain people ... certain items.

D So why did you choose this one? Did you just like the image?

K Well, it was the one that painting every­ one liked. Everyone liked the, uh, can­dles.

T It was funny... We've met him.

K Yeah, I know him...

T He's very... he's like probably the most famous German artist alive.

K Painter.

T Yeh, painter. And for "Sister" I was trying to instigate using one of his paintings, of his ­-

K Of his daughter.

T And I thought it went well with "Sister". Because, actually, they're very romantic paintings.

K But the head was sideways, it looked kinda odd, it looked like it could have been cut off, and in a rock format it just took on a different meaning. Anyway, some of the people in group objected to it.

T So we didn't use it, but we all sort of admired it. For this record, Lee actually brought it up once. It was in the back of my head, especially about the candle paintings. And Lee said, "Y'know I was wondering about those."

K Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing, too. But it was like no-one wanted to mention it, 'cause...

T 'Cause it failed last time.

D Yeah...

T But we all ... so, that was kinda interest­ing that we all, sort of like, were think­ing the same thing about... Some kind of band telepathy thing there... we all felt good about it. We only saw it in black and white, and it is in colour, though it’s a very subtle colouring, the painting. It looks nice in colour. I don't know what the significance is, with the title. I mean, the title came afterwards, really. We had different titles that we were throwing around.

K Well I see it as, you could either look at it as either like the one glimmer of hope, or . .. the opposite. There is only one glim­mer of hope.

D When that one goes, then that's it.

K Or, it's like, the dimly lit daydream, kind of... or a trip out to the barn, I dunno...

T I just see it as simple, like, romanticism. But, er, hopefully it’s not too pretentious. It's also just, for me, It's just exposing something that's really beautiful.

D Why's it a double album?

T We usually try to do our albums as the­matic as possible, as like what we're doing. We had an option of cutting out a lot of the material, but It's sort of like. .. cutting out chapters, in a way.

K And there's one song that was a .,. It's a trilogy, you know. And if there's a trilogy then it's a double album!

T It just turned out that way. The sides aren't like 25-minute sides, which is pret­ty like, good, nice, generous side of an album. They're 18-minute sides. So they're sort of brief sides, but... not too brief.

D You had too much to make it into one...

T I was into the idea of making a 3-sided album, a la Johnny Winters' album.

K People really tried to discourage us from putting out a double album. Like Enigma.

T People in the business. . .

K It's like, "Oh, a double album, no-one'll buy it". It's ridiculous. It's a cheap double  album too.

D But you finally persuaded them to do it?

T Fortunately, everyone's doing it these days. I think it’s a new trend. This is an excuse for us to expand the actual object. See what we can do with it. It's, er, it's a gatefold sleeve. . .

K Yeah, we wanted to do a gatefold sleeve.

T But I've always liked gatefold thing. I guess. They get kinda boorish though, after a while. This one also has a poster inside.

D Whatever happened to Ciccone Youth's  LP?

K We decided to bootleg it. Prince did the 'Black' record so we're doing "The Whitey Album" as a bootleg.

T It'll be out January, February... That's the kind of record that we don't care about and we just sort of kick it around and it'll come out, like, when it’s, like, ready. It almost came out a week before this one. and then we said said, no, let's put this on the back-burner... It's like kind of a goofy record in a way, so we don't want people to get the wrong idea, 'Cause our last record was...

K Goofy!

T Goofy.

K And bad.

T Considered the worst record ever issued.

K Which was really our intention.

D It worked, then would you say?

T To show that we could probably make the worst record ever? I think we suc­ceeded, yeah, I’m real happy about that.

D Right. Why are you only playing 2 dates in the UK?

T Because we're only over here to, erm... actually not play the UK.,but to play like in these sort of licensee countries, like Spain and Greece etcetera, etcetera. Like, they've licensed the record and we never go there, 'cause they're a bit out of the way, but, er, we're gonna go there now and sort of, appease them.

K It's great to play places you've never played before.

T Yeah, we're really looking forward to pIaying them.

D You must get really good audiences there, 'cause they just don't get many people.

K Yeah, they're a different kinda audience.

T But we're gonna be here, like after February and we'll probably play more in England, that's for sure. At least two dates.

K We'll do 3 dates!

D These two dates are like a warm-up for next year.

T We still don't know the words to the songs yet, or how to play them all that  well.

D So you wouldn't recommend anybody coming along really...

T No. We're hoping that nobody' II come. It's like the last dates of an 8-date thing, so hopefully we'll be a bit warmed up. London, It's these places you play, like the Town & Country Club and, now, Astoria and it's. .. they're kinda like mammoth places, I mean, below kind of Odeon and what not and you can't feel like, "We're just gonna go to the club, plug in and just play." You feel like you're going into the arena.

K Plus, you're playing in London.

T Plus, we're hyped-up to such a point that people are expecting, like, the Christ child to be born on stage, and whatever. It's not always that way.

D Yeah, It's very difficult. And you've got to get in the right mood...

K Yeah. New York's that way too.

T We're very audience minded, 'cause we go to a lot of shows... I go to a lot..  and we know what the expectation is and people will ... I mean, you basically understand what's going on, unless you're a total dimwit. You understand what's going on, you know, on stage, as far as performance is ... You know, even if you don't know if something's break­ing down, or what it is, you know that. It's strange... I don't think people go, "Whoops... wrong! Why's it bad?"

K I dunno, I think most people don't know what's going on. I really don't think they do, I mean ­-

T I think, when you talk to ... I talk to any­body, they'll say, like, even if it was a bad gig, they'll say, "Yes, bad gig", but they'll say, like, "The sound was, ah..." and they'll notice a certain aspect...

K Some people do and other people want to be entertained. It's like something happens to your equipment, they just think you're just, like a, being a ... you know. .. a dilettante or something, because you've got to, like, talk to the monitor person or you're amp's gone out, and they just like, I mean they want you to, ah ... I mean, "You don't need that. Come on, just make some noise!"

T We don't have the desire to have to con­nect to people like that, anyways.

D One would've thought your audience, maybe, was slightly more on the ball anyway.

T We get a mixture. I mean... 'cause we've been getting a lot of press. .. like in America we're getting all this press in Heavy Metal magazines, like "Rip" and "Cream Metal Stars" or something, and there'll be some kids at the gigs who're, like decked-out in metal regalia, or Slay­er T's, and "Yeeaah! We read about you guys in 'Rip'," you know, and "Kill 'em tonight!" and I feel kinda guilty, 'cause we're not gonna, like...

D You're gonna keep some of them any­ way...

K Yeah. So, hopefully you'll get some of the fans, the smarter ones.

D What's your favourite colour, book, fIlm, etcetera, right now?

K I think glitter is my favourite colour.

D Thurston?

T White?

D Book?

K Wow, book. Ah, "A Childhood" by Harry Crews.

D Thurston?

T Oh, what was the last good book I read?

K Actually, I just read James Elroy's new book, called "The Big Nowhere". Is it "The Big Nowhere" or is it "The Big Nothing?"

T It's "The Big Nowhere".

K It's really great.

D I wonder if that's available here? I don't think Harry Crews is available here.  Someone should really.. .

K Really? That's really weird...

D This is what Richard said, but it’s hard to believe.

K Well, I think Madonna and Sean will be publishing his books soon.

D Sorry, Thurston... have you remem­bered the last book you read?

T No, 'cause they're all kind of, like, mediocre books. I mean, It's very rarely I read a book I really just. .. I mean. James Elroy usually is pretty amazing. The books I've read by him. I read a lot of sort of, uh, new writers, like people sort of my age, who're writing kind of science fiction, but they refer to it more as 'spec­ulative fiction', 'cause it really has noth­ing to do with robots, or. I just read this book by Lewis Shiner. called - Desert­ed Cities Of The Heart-. and that has absolutely nothing to do with science fic­tion. It's just, sort of, a tale that took place in Mexico and the only place you can find it is in a science fiction store, which is totally ridiculous because it’s totally mainstream. It's a great book.

D They just don’t get classified as kind of . .. If it’s 'contemporary fiction' it has to be kind of about. I dunno, relationships or something like that.

T I like contemporary fiction. I mean, I like some of it. I like Anne Tyler. I've read some of her books, they're pretty neat. Ha-ha. She's an American, like, writer, who writes about the mundane, but there's such a bizarre under element of it, so they're always really interesting.

D Film?

T I liked "Last Temptation"

D I thought you might say that. That's opened here.

T It wasn't long enough. It was really inter­esting. Plus the fact that somebody like Zefferelli thought it was the most dis­turbed, horrible piece of ­-

K Really? He thought so? Hmm.

T He just lashed out at it. Didn't Zefferelli have a movie called "The Story Of Christ" years ago, that was a very valued Italian mm?

K I think, some religious film...

T This movie is like. Italian . Americans going, "Yo, Christ!'

D They talk like they come from. . .

K Brooklyn.

T And that was just great, because... It's just really great. It's this cross between, like. this American and Italian thing, as far as, like, the Christian ethic. And the. .. It's just really good. The acting is really great- Though it was very low-budget in a way.

K It's only, like, an $8-million film, I think.

T It's still huge, y'know, en locale, kind of thing.

D Where was it filmed? Was it Mexico?

T It was Mexico. Which is another like, great addition to the kind of superstitious aspects of it. But, it just dealt with things  in a way that were really interesting. You wanted to, like, break out laughing at certain points, like when Lazarus was brought from the dead and he was, like, sitting there, looking like he had a horri­ble hangover, and Harvey Keitel comes over and says "Yo, Lazarus! How're you feeling, pal?". I thought that was just amazing.

T The crucifixion scene is just. .. awesome.

K I can't wait to see it.

T It's frightening, in a way. And then it goes into its part that everybody's think­ing is this great evil. He has a dream where this guardian angel says, "You're not the Saviour, you're just a regular man," and then he gets married and has children... and then the dream fades. But that's like, what everybody's upset at, that Christ had desire to be like a man. . . the Messiah...

D But did it actually work in the film?

T Oh yeah, I thought so. It was very corny. And if you didn't have any interest in it, you'd just be very kind of bored by it. 'Cause It's not like, high adventure, at all.

K High adventure with Christ!

D Was it actually quite seriously looking at Christian ideas?

T I think so. Oh yeah, It's a very serious movie, on his part. I don't think he was bastardising it ... But, you know, I mean if you see these people outside of the cinema, y'know, holding up their... their Jesus pictures and denouncing every­body. They're just totally ridiculous. Aw, they're just idiots. But, to each his own.

D Anything else you'd care to ...

T Oh, "The Decline of Western Civilization, Part 2: The Metal Years".

K Ah, "The Metal Years"...

T "The Metal Years". Go see that. That's like the high comedy of the last decade.

K That's one of the best documentaries I've seen.

T You remember the movie called "The Decline of Western Civilisation" ...

K By Penelope Spheeris ...

T . .. about the Los Angeles punk rock scene.

K Claude Bessey, actually, was in it

T But this is, like, a bigger budget and it deals with the metal scene of Hollywood. And It's, It's just.. .

K It's amazing. It's just so depressing.

T It's unsigned bands and It's all inter­views.

K And it's interviews with established peo­ple like Ozzy ...

T Yeah...

K . .. and Aerosmith and Lemmy ... and then it's interviewing these young kids who all want to be stars, and will persist until. .. they just don't consider anything else. .. they'll kill themselves if they don't make it.

D And do any of them appear to have any kind of talent whatsoever?

T Not really. They're all ... their back­grounds, they're rich brat backgrounds from Hollywood, so they're kind of like sitting in their saunas, being interviewed, then going to the club, and all the women are just totally exploited and its just, uh ...

D Nothing's changed in 30 years.

T It's just so amazing, and they're obvious­ly young and like. .. wasted.

D Their whole life's dedicated to that.

T It's an amazing film.

D OK. What do we have next? In fact, Richard has misinterpreted "The Sprawl", or interpreted it in a different. . .

K Oh, well that's where I got the word, actually, from the book jacket of "Mona  Lisa Overdrive"                 .

D So... "There's a song on the album called 'The Sprawl'. Just how do you relate to the whole cyberpunk move­ment?"

T Oh dear...

K I was looking for a title and I just hap­pened to be glancing over this book jacket.

T Well, they're like our contemporaries for rocking in a different media.

K Yeah, right.

T Parallel rocking. Sort of like Benny Goodman and Hemingway.

D Have you met any of them?

K No, but a couple of them have listened to our music, I guess.

D I didn't go and hear William Gibson when he was over here, I was away, I think.

T Richard went to see him and thought he was great.

D Yes.

T I'm not that big a fan of all those guys. I mean, I like the ... you know none of them were cyberpunk. I mean only Bruce Sterling sorta ...

K He's one of the better ones.

T Better?

K The less stylised.

T Yeah. He's an amazing writer. They just sort of deal with certain things, you know, that only people of their age could really come up with, I think. .. cer­tain aspects.

D Otherwise, recommendations?

T "Schismatrix" was great.

D Now we get on to the platitudinous stuff... Where are you headed, apart from Vienna of course?

K I don't know, I really couldn't say – nor would I want to think about it.

D Do you think about it, do you have a plan?

K It's more of a general kind of ... I mean, it's sometimes a reaction against the last records.

D Rather than recording on old valve equipment, go and do something else.

K Or, like "Sister"'s all kind of songs like, just short and concise. This is I guess more extended, in retrospect. It's just more of a feeling about it. Each record is written at a different time...

T As J. Mascis said, "We don't see what all this big deal about music is, anyway." You know, in that "Sounds" interview.

K "It's just something to help fill up the time so I don't have to watch TV all the time."

T He's very honest. "All these weekly mags, all this business, what's the big deal?" The big deal is, it tends to sell.

D How do you equate the hard/artcore ele­ments?

K Like. .. Bongwater?

T That's too tricky.

K I'm not really familiar with artcore.

T We want to be like, if you can imagine Mark E. Smith singing in an Oi band, that's sort of what we're trying to attempt. I just saw The Fall with Michael Clarke. It was great. You should get to go.

D I enjoyed the last stuff

T He used to be a big fan of ours.

K Really?

T Yeah. 'Cause, Charles Atlas who was doing the lighting, came up and said, like, "I told Michael you were here and he was very surprised, 'cause he used to live in New York and see all your shows, and stand in front and be a groupie." And I said, "What are you talking about?". He said, "You actually used to know him", because he used to live with a fellow where we used to rehearse, so I have this faint image of this person, and that was Michael Clarke.

D He's a great dancer.

T The whole troupe are. Amazing.

D He's actually quite liked by the straight ballet world

T It's interesting, because there were a lot of straight theatre people there in their 50s and 60s, for The Fall and all this repetitious rock riffing! They seemed to enjoy it and nobody left.

D When we went to see... it was at Xmas time, the last time... with a lot of music by Wire and some people did leave... Right, what's the interview question you'd most like to be asked and how would you answer it?

T It's never happened

K "How tall is Thurston?"

D Is this a secret?

T "What's the first record you ever bought?"

D What was it?

T With my own money? er .. .

D Well, the first one your mother bought for you...

K "Cinderella" .

T "Inna Gadda Da Vida" by Iron Butterfly. Remember them?

D Yes.

T That was my first purchase. I remember then buying "Satanic Majesties Request" and not knowing what it was, until maybe a week or two later, after hearing

it for a long time, trying to figure out that was the Rolling Stones? I was so young and I wasn't that familiar with them, and my brother said, like, "You should buy this record" that was. . . weird... All the best bands, all the people in these bands, they all had brothers and sisters who were into the classic Rock thing...

D It's very difficult... I think the first things I ever got were, like, The Beatles.

K Hayley Mills

D Cliff... My mother's younger brother had all these Johnny Ray and Bill Hayley things around, that must have started me off.

T J. Mascis from Dinosaur Jr, his major influence was his elder sister... Since you were a little baby, you're hearing all these things, there's no real jumping-off point.

D So Kim, do you have a question you've always wished to be asked?

K No, actually, I don't.

T "What are the two things you hate most about England?" That's what they asked Mark E, Smith, and he said "Dogs and the fellow that invented 'The Face'," The two things that most English people are supposed to like,

D And what two things do you most dislike about America?

K Nancy and Ronald Reagan, Hah hah.

T But we're dog-lovers,

K Definitely, dog-lovers,

T You can tell the dog-lover bands, like, the Butthole Surfers are dog-lovers ...

K Their dog used to tour with them. . .

T We went to the dog races the other night. That's probably a dog-lover's thing. We're dog-lovers.  The Fall are not dog -Iovers, it sort of shows.